Re: This forum...

by Upwind Wed 8 Aug - 0:35:11

Dagenham Rover wrote:

So I take it DS will still be in charge tomorrow

Only for as long as it takes for him to clear his desk and tap a postcode into his TomTom for a route back to Wales.

by donnyroversfc Wed 8 Aug - 2:25:03

Upwind wrote:When I win the Euro lottery tonight I shall ensure that I donate a small percentage into the Rovers coffers.........obviously after I have bought out the KM2 and told DS to do one......

Did you win, or has it not been drawn yet? I hope you stick to your first point if you do win (Buying out the KM2) Smile

by SkellowRover Wed 8 Aug - 2:51:15

Irish Contingent wrote:

All that says is that "Wages" have to be within statutory limits. I maintain "Directors" can donate as per "Championship" clubs.

No they can't and that is why the SCMP was brought into play, which is completely different to the FFP of Championship clubs. Our playing budget has to be within 65% of our turnover and that does NOT include any investment from directors or owners. Why do you think we have no squad, were £1m over our wage budget and can't get players in until the highest earners are gone? I'm sure Silent Majority would confirm this as well.

by Silent Majority Wed 8 Aug - 18:57:39

Yes I support that Skellow, that's the whole point of FFP, at whatever level, is to cut out the dubious race for success on the pitch by loading the club with debt. Admittedly there some ways around it at the highest level, aka Man City, but at FL level the clubs have all bought into it and its stabilised the ship for quite a few.

by Irish Contingent Wed 8 Aug - 19:31:29

So , there are completely different set of rules for Championship, L1 and L2.

by Silent Majority Thu 9 Aug - 0:28:57

Irish Contingent wrote:So , there are completely different set of rules for Championship, L1 and L2.

Not completely different, just different.

by **hoolahoop** Thu 9 Aug - 8:26:59

Silent Majority wrote:

Not completely different, just different.

Helpfully different perhaps for some ?

by SkellowRover Thu 9 Aug - 20:26:30

hoolahoop wrote:

Helpfully different perhaps for some ?

Yeah it gives bigger clubs with a larger fanbase a huge advantage because teams getting 4-5k through the turnstiles can't compete with those getting 15-20k

by Irish Contingent Thu 9 Aug - 22:24:11

But that was always the case SR.

by **hoolahoop** Fri 10 Aug - 4:55:29

Yep just put all the best supported clubs in order of support in a full re-organisation of the league.

''Sugar daddies'' are only there for the richest clubs from now on eh Sad

by Silent Majority Fri 10 Aug - 7:29:50

hoolahoop wrote:Yep just put all the best supported clubs in order of support in a full re-organisation of the league.

''Sugar daddies'' are only there for the richest clubs from now on eh

That's not its intention and in a lot of cases things will stay the same. If owners want to invest they can, however those that wish to loan money to the club can't. In other words it stops owners from saddling the club with massive debts which can only be repaid if they achieve success on the pitch. In the last 10 years or so 2/3rds of all football clubs have gone into administration or had to reorganise to avoid administration.

Look at Luton, Bradford City, SWFC, Portsmouth, and in Scotland Rangers plus another 6 from their top division. If that's how you want football to continue then the FFP is not for you.

by **NIGHTMARE** Fri 10 Aug - 10:07:38

SWFC have never been in admin

by Silent Majority Fri 10 Aug - 10:14:37

NIGHTMARE wrote:SWFC have never been in admin

I didn't say they had, I said clubs that had been in admin or had to re-organise to avoid admin. And of course that's what they did when the coop bank wrote off about £17m

Didn't you go into admin as well?

by **NIGHTMARE** Fri 10 Aug - 16:31:48

Yeah when ITV digital went to the wall, they took us with them,

by **hoolahoop** Fri 10 Aug - 18:51:58

Silent Majority wrote:

That's not its intention and in a lot of cases things will stay the same. If owners want to invest they can, however those that wish to loan money to the club can't. In other words it stops owners from saddling the club with massive debts which can only be repaid if they achieve success on the pitch. In the last 10 years or so 2/3rds of all football clubs have gone into administration or had to reorganise to avoid administration.

Look at Luton, Bradford City, SWFC, Portsmouth, and in Scotland Rangers plus another 6 from their top division. If that's how you want football to continue then the FFP is not for you.

Come on Martin that post was meant tongue in cheek Wink

Of course I want ALL clubs in the whole FL to be healthy, can you explain why there are different rules for different Divisions though i.e. Prem, C/Ship and Divs 1 and 2 ?

Surely this is a national game calling for equality and fair play as well as them all operating in a healthy way. It is the greed of the Prem. clubs and the rewards for getting there or trying to get there that has caused many of our clubs to operate in such a way that year on year losses make them wholely/nearly unsustainable.

Sky monies should have been more equitably shared from the start of the Premiership thus preventing clubs at the top from incurring spiralling wage costs for all clubs. Btw it seems that some of the clubs you have mentioned have suffered from 'disappearing' monies as well as expensive court cases, however I agree that SWFC were also on the verge of Admin/liquidation had it not been for the intervention of Mandaric. Saddled with such debts it would only have been a short time before they were likely to join the Pompey's of the world and I get your drift.

As for the 'fit and proper' ruling well that needs discussing at some point. Smile

It seems for some clubs that the 'wake up call' has/is going to come too late sadly for their supporters. Sad

by SkellowRover Fri 10 Aug - 19:10:06

What is even more crazy about Wednesday Steve is the fact that it was PL Chariman Dave Richards that put them in the mess they were in. And this bloke is now in a position so powerful in the game that it's frightning.

by **hoolahoop** Fri 10 Aug - 19:14:49

SkellowRover wrote:What is even more crazy about Wednesday Steve is the fact that it was PL Chariman Dave Richards that put them in the mess they were in. And this bloke is now in a position so powerful in the game that it's frightning.

Hmmmmmm it would be interesting to read SM's take on that.

by SkellowRover Fri 10 Aug - 19:21:32

Before he became Wednesday Chairman he was director of a few companies that went bust. When he was their chairman he spent way more then they had and borrowed a lot of money from the co-op bank before resigning when they got relegated from the PL saddled with debts he left. From then it was a downhill slide without the PL money coming in. I have wednesday supporting relatives as my dads family are from Sheffield and i used to go watch them quite a bit in the late 80's and early 90's when we never had a game or an away game too far away and the bloke is hated by their fans for what he did.

by **hoolahoop** Fri 10 Aug - 19:29:29

Not the ideal candidate eh, I also have mates that despise this man with a fervour.

How has he got so much power ?

by donnyroversfc Fri 10 Aug - 19:48:45

And to think he ended up being our kit man.

by SkellowRover Fri 10 Aug - 19:50:22

Kissing arse Steve, he's been like that ever since he got into football along with comming out with nonsensical bollocks lol.

by **hoolahoop** Fri 10 Aug - 20:01:55

SkellowRover wrote:Kissing arse Steve, he's been like that ever since he got into football along with comming out with nonsensical bollocks lol.

It really shows what a strange world that our national game operates in. Rolling Eyes

by Silent Majority Fri 10 Aug - 20:04:07

Dave Richards is a disgrace and he was the one who started the problems at SWFC. If your interested this is part of what we submitted to the All Party Select Committee last summer, this is the bit on SWFC;

4.1 Sheffield Wednesday

Sheffield Wednesday is one of our oldest clubs with a proud tradition and history. For years they were a local club that operated within their means and were in the main owned, like most clubs with this history through shareholders based in and around Sheffield.

They held Annual General Meetings and elected the Directors. To be fair these were mainly the large shareholders and local business men. This changed with the formation of the Premier league in 1992. Over a period of years they lived beyond their means, borrowing large sums of money from the banks on the back of the money coming in from the Premier league. This was used to pay over inflated transfer fees and salaries on players. This was done to try and retain their status in the Premier league. Very little was invested in youth set up. As a result very few local players came through from Youth Level. Debts were allowed to build up to a reported level of £35,000,000.

Around 6 years ago a takeover/buyout was arranged and around 40% of the club shares were bought. These were distributed to 3 Directors who only retained around 9.9% of the shareholding. The other 9.9% was handed over to Wednesdayite, the Supporters’ Trust at Sheffield Wednesday. By only retaining 9.9% per this group, it allowed them to have ‘non influential status’ under company law. The reality was that they could combine their vote and have a significant say in running of the club. This is evidenced by the fact that one of them became Chairman and the other 2 were elected onto the board of Directors.

To be fair to them, it would appear that they tried to run the club on good financial lines and improve the debt levels. One even started loaning money to the club to meet the ongoing commitments. Initially interest was accrued on these loans. Later on from information and public statements this interest was waived. These loans then rose to around £2.5m.

At no time throughout this period when the debts were allowed to accrue was any action taken by the authorities to stem this debt or indeed ask the club what it was doing to remove them. The new directors were trying to get investment into the club. In the current climate and the fact the club had being relegated to the Championship and now subsequently to league one, investment was hard to get.
The Supporters obviously became frustrated with what was happening to their club and eventually forced the Chairman to resign and leave the club. He did though retain his 9.9% shareholding and held loan notes up to around £2.5m. He subsequently went and invested in Chesterfield FC. He was then required to give an undertaking that he no longer would influence what happened at Sheffield Wednesday. Over the last 2 years it has been reported that certain investors wanted to buy into Sheffield Wednesday FC. These were blocked by someone over the loan note issue.

Just before Christmas 2010 Milan Mandaric, the ex owner of Portsmouth and Leicester City bought the controlling interest in Sheffield Wednesday. This clubs highlights the lack of regulation and investigations in the game today. A big cub was allowed to build up totally unsustainable debts on the back of the money from the Premier League and yet nothing was done to stop it. An ex-Chairman was allowed for 2 years to influence decisions at this club whilst being a Director, and according to Chesterfield FC website majority shareholder of another club contrary to Football League rules.

Sheffield Wednesday has now got a new owner with no ties to Sheffield Wednesday or the community. He has already proved he is willing to move from club to club. In both his previous clubs he has built up significant debts before, fortunately for him selling onto new owners from abroad. So how can Sheffield Wednesday look forward to long term security

by **hoolahoop** Fri 10 Aug - 20:19:19

Thanks for that SM really interesting reading. There appears from that statement to be so much wrong with the game.

Time for an all party committee of MP's to look at every clubs activities now not tomorrow

by Silent Majority Fri 10 Aug - 20:22:00

Yes there is and we are still waiting for the final recommendations from the Government, due soon. But to bring this full circle, that's why FFP exists and why we as a supporters organisation pushed for its inclusion.

PS, don't forget there is more money in football today than at any-time in its history, and its also in the biggest mess its ever been in. They go hand in hand right?

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