Re: Why DRFC have gone to "Willy"

by VixDRFC Mon 20 Feb - 4:45:51

yorkie64red wrote:

I see so that justifies it does it...obviously what some of us see as decent civilised behaviour and what you see are miles apart...carry on like this and we will have kids flocking to support the club with their parents blessings ...just the sort of role model we want...

I never even thought of that - we really need a facepalm smiley, I've a feeling it would come in useful for the next couple of months

by dickos1 Mon 20 Feb - 4:47:29

I'm not trying to justify anything, but to cascade our own player after two tunnel scuffles I think is wrong. We don't know what happened or was said. Our own fans are jumping on the bandwagon against a drfc player, which as I've stated didn't happen in the past.
Not sure what the relevance with oster and hayter is either, I'm sure they were actually found guilty of doing something wrong which isn't the case here

by VixDRFC Mon 20 Feb - 4:55:59

dickos1 wrote:I'm not trying to justify anything, but to cascade our own player after two tunnel scuffles I think is wrong. We don't know what happened or was said. Our own fans are jumping on the bandwagon against a drfc player, which as I've stated didn't happen in the past.
Not sure what the relevance with oster and hayter is either, I'm sure they were actually found guilty of doing something wrong which isn't the case here

Do you know something I don't care about Diouf - I care about my club just as you claim to do and I care his behaviour is helping to bring the once decent reputation the club had into tatters - end of. The police are involved for goodness sake so it was hardly a few handbags.

I brought Hayter and Oster into it because I was curious to see what level of defence you went to for players who have been with us longer. If I remember rightly they got moved on by police for being drunk and Oster didn't go so he got arrested. I gather that happens many saturday night in towns, more often than scuffles in tunnels but SOD took action

by dickos1 Mon 20 Feb - 5:01:17

How do you know Saunders won't take action if diouf ever does anything wrong. I've mentioned many wrong uns we've had even over a short period including brabin, Sutherland, Hulme, Hume, Ryan. All did things that were wrong but we loved them and protected them, I don't understand why there is a difference now..
To talk of our reputation as being in tatters is getting daft, the police were there to break it up and that's how it ended, no charges were brought

With regards oster and hayter, It makes no difference to me how long they've been our player, they should all be treated the same by us, the fans

by VixDRFC Mon 20 Feb - 5:12:42

dickos1 wrote:How do you know Saunders won't take action if diouf ever does anything wrong. I've mentioned many wrong uns we've had even over a short period including brabin, Sutherland, Hulme, Hume, Ryan. All did things that were wrong but we loved them and protected them, I don't understand why there is a difference now..
To talk of our reputation as being in tatters is getting daft, the police were there to break it up and that's how it ended, no charges were brought

Where did I say he wouldn't take action although after the Blackpool game he should have at least had a word (and no I don't know he didn't but if he did it didn't have much effect)

And sorry but our reputation is going down the pan - I can see the outcome of this being both clubs fined for failing to control their players

by dickos1 Mon 20 Feb - 5:18:08

Because you implied it by saying "but sod took action"
Earlier you mentioned my posts on other sites, you must be mistaking me with someone else, I've never criticised sod or his reign , ever

by **hoolahoop** Mon 20 Feb - 5:27:27

Irish Contingent wrote:Why Hoola, is it not a cost to DRFC, If a player joins for a million ( say ), and is on 3K a week for 2 years, is that not a total cost to DRFC of 1.312 million to DRFC. If he is then sold for 1.5 million is the profit on said player not 188K. Just same as buying a house on mortgage, you may pay 100k for it, but in real terms end up paying much more by the time its yours, so profit if same house is sold for 200K is not 100K.

Wages are costs, purchases and sales must be seperate surely. When we buy and sell cars we don't include 'stocking' costs or staff wages on each and every sale.
Is accountancy in football different, I agree it comes under a profit and loss overall assessment but when assessing Wellens wages for instance wouldn't it be more prudent to include all income (or proportionate income) when assessing his cost/loss i.e. television monies , npower championship monies, attendance income etc ?
Am I missing something here ? scratch

by VixDRFC Mon 20 Feb - 5:28:37

dickos1 wrote:Because you implied it by saying "but sod took action"
Earlier you mentioned my posts on other sites, you must be mistaking me with someone else, I've never criticised sod or his reign , ever

I didn't refer to you criticising SOD when I mentioned your posts on other sites. It was in reference to some of your views being different to mine on various subjects. I didn't mention SOD until later

If you wish to continue to debate with me here's a few facts which might help

I thought SOD was a great manager but I think we were ready for a change, we'd grown staid
I have no problem with McKay's involvement at all
I think Diouf is an excellent footballer
I don't think Saunders is good or experienced enough. I think we approached far more suitable people for the job prior to his appointment
I think Diouf's constant bickering with officials/other players/involved in physical skirmishes is starting to apply his previous reputation both to him and our club. There's no doubting his quality but as I said before he needs to get his head down and let his football do all the talking. Then I will be quite happy to back him as vocally as I do all the other players

by dickos1 Mon 20 Feb - 5:33:26

Well I agree with your first 3 points Laughing

. I'm intrigued what posts I've made that differ from your opinion because the majority of my posts have been in defence of McKay. Infact I'd say 90% of them scratch

by Irish Contingent Mon 20 Feb - 5:37:09

Hoola. Its a contractual cost. Even if said player only plays 1 game of a 46 game season, DRFC are contractually bound to pay, so when assesing profit on said player, it is accountable.

by VixDRFC Mon 20 Feb - 5:40:07

Well we differ on Saunders, we differ on that we've drastically reduced the wage bill, we differ on the idea we've brought in players of a million times better quality (might be true with Diouf, Button, Ikeme, Fortune and Beye to a degree but the rest, what we've seen of them seem pretty average

And thats just for starters Wink

by dickos1 Mon 20 Feb - 5:46:36

The rest maybe average but they are still a lot better than the short term players we had last year, ie Thomas, Souza, moussa, euell etc etc.
Ok so the wage bill isn't significantly reduced, but it's obviously been reduced, so they've started the process of the 4 year plan.
I don't mind disagreeing about our manager that's what being a fan is all about

by VixDRFC Mon 20 Feb - 6:02:34

I thought Thomas and Souza were poor. I thought Moussa was better than Goulon and Euell came up with a couple of goals. He wasn't a long term solution but then he was never meant to be.

I'm not sure how you come up with the wage bill being obviously reduced. Yes Sharp's gone, also Wilson, Shiels, Naylor and Mason. Parkin and Lalkovic were only brought in as short term solutions (much shorter term than most of the new players we have now) Diouf, Beye and Chimbonda won't have resigned for £2K a week and we have Bagayoko, Bamogo, Plessis, Robert and Diatta on the books as well as short term paying Goulon, Ilunga and Fortune

I just can't see how we've saved much then add on the hotel accomodation, 4* doesn't come cheap - even in Doncaster lol!

by TommyVercetti Mon 20 Feb - 6:12:05

Saunders has said that the wage bill has been reduced. Thats all we have to go on without guessing the wages of our players.

by **hoolahoop** Mon 20 Feb - 6:18:46

Irish Contingent wrote:The same can be said of any player currently at DRFC, can it not, EHD cost nothing, Salary is minimal, if he left tomorrow DRFC will have profited from his performance, like wise Chimbonda, Boko and Bago, Beye, whoever you care to mention, by your reasoning.
Now plainly the above can not be true.

Irish you can't switch your reasoning to suit the player you want to discuss. I don't buy the argument that long term employees have to be released at a profit .......it's their contribution that matters surely ?
If you draft in a core of players who have little/no affinity to the club and that have brought little or no improvement to our status/position then you have achieved .......NOWT. If you alienate supporters from their heroes and Vix has alluded to this point on many occasions ; you will lose fanbase. Where do you factor continuing poor performances, dwindling crowds, lack of empathy (especially from younger supporters) into your financial argument ?
Would you 'ship out' all contracted players and just rely on short-term players to resolve our plight and secure our future ?
I have no problem with McKay and have no problem with him assisting us to achieve a more solid base but just how far down this road would you have us go ?

by dickos1 Mon 20 Feb - 6:38:01

We were paying a high percentage for lalkovic and Parkin, I don't know about mason. Yes diouf and bêye will be on more than 2k, I don't think it will be as high as sharp though.
Ive heard they are both on massive bonuses if we stay up rather than a high wage, which makes sense because if we go down our revenue will be drastically reduced.

by **yorkie64red** Mon 20 Feb - 6:43:12

hoolahoop wrote:

Irish you can't switch your reasoning to suit the player you want to discuss. I don't buy the argument that long term employees have to be released at a profit .......it's their contribution that matters surely ?
If you draft in a core of players who have little/no affinity to the club and that have brought little or no improvement to our status/position then you have achieved .......NOWT. If you alienate supporters from their heroes and Vix has alluded to this point on many occasions ; you will lose fanbase. Where do you factor continuing poor performances, dwindling crowds, lack of empathy (especially from younger supporters) into your financial argument ?
Would you 'ship out' all contracted players and just rely on short-term players to resolve our plight and secure our future ?
I have no problem with McKay and have no problem with him assisting us to achieve a more solid base but just how far down this road would you have us go ?

Good post Hoola...i don't enjoy going to games at the minuite , tommorow i will be buying a ticket for westham but thats really only because we already have train tickets and were going for the day anyway..i will buy a season ticket next season but can't say i am relishing it..i will be making some savings though the alliance and the lottery are going to go...it seems that everything that attracted me to supporting Rovers in the first place is gradually been eroded...but thats just me and how i feel..others may feel diffrently thats fine..

by VixDRFC Mon 20 Feb - 6:53:59

dickos1 wrote:We were paying a high percentage for lalkovic and Parkin, I don't know about mason. Yes diouf and bêye will be on more than 2k, I don't think it will be as high as sharp though.
Ive heard they are both on massive bonuses if we stay up rather than a high wage, which makes sense because if we go down our revenue will be drastically reduced.

But Lalkovic and Parkin were never going to be long term loanees - we paid a large amount for Kilgallon last season and didn't play him. And about Diouf and Beye, I don't think they'll be far off Sharp's wage. But a lot is rumour and speculation

by **hoolahoop** Mon 20 Feb - 7:14:24

yorkie64red wrote:

Good post Hoola...i don't enjoy going to games at the minuite , tommorow i will be buying a ticket for westham but thats really only because we already have train tickets and were going for the day anyway..i will buy a season ticket next season but can't say i am relishing it..i will be making some savings though the alliance and the lottery are going to go...it seems that everything that attracted me to supporting Rovers in the first place is gradually been eroded...but thats just me and how i feel..others may feel diffrently thats fine..

Yes we are in danger of alienating our supporters and becoming less attractive to the floating /new supporters. I feel the same way as you , there was a time and you know me well enough when I couldn't sleep before a match often up and awake at 6am.........home or away.
This gut feeling has gone and instead it feels more like a chore, the first time for many many years and you can include the Conference years in that lifespan as wrell as the 60, 70 , 80 and 90's. My pub team , my friendly decent team, my everyone's 2nd. team has all but disappeared in 6 months. Sad

by Dagenham Rover Mon 20 Feb - 7:45:17

I see exactly where your coming from Hoola (and I've been about since Werder Bremen and a bit before Smile

)

But what I will say is after Tuesdays incident with me, the family friendly, my club came together again !

by Irish Contingent Mon 20 Feb - 8:25:27

hoolahoop wrote:

Irish you can't switch your reasoning to suit the player you want to discuss. I don't buy the argument that long term employees have to be released at a profit .......it's their contribution that matters surely ?
If you draft in a core of players who have little/no affinity to the club and that have brought little or no improvement to our status/position then you have achieved .......NOWT. If you alienate supporters from their heroes and Vix has alluded to this point on many occasions ; you will lose fanbase. Where do you factor continuing poor performances, dwindling crowds, lack of empathy (especially from younger supporters) into your financial argument ?
Would you 'ship out' all contracted players and just rely on short-term players to resolve our plight and secure our future ?
I have no problem with McKay and have no problem with him assisting us to achieve a more solid base but just how far down this road would you have us go ?

Hoola,
That was a remark to the post immediatly preceeding. I wasn't changing tack. And i am sure you know that.

by **hoolahoop** Mon 20 Feb - 9:31:22

Sorry Irish I didn't read it as that, please I'm talking about the overall cost of a player . How do you measure the cost of Billy Sharp to DRFC for instance. Do you simply minus his wages from any profit made on the sale and then say it was bad business ? scratch

by Irish Contingent Mon 20 Feb - 19:12:09

BS cost to DRFC is transfer fee and any wages / Bonus/ Car/ travel associated with him. If the total cost to DRFCwas in fact 2 million and he is sold for 2 million, then it is bad business, simply because not a penny was made, if however he was sold for 3 million then thats a clear million profit and good business.

by Upwind Mon 20 Feb - 20:40:25

Irish Contingent wrote:BS cost to DRFC is transfer fee and any wages / Bonus/ Car/ travel associated with him. If the total cost to DRFCwas in fact 2 million and he is sold for 2 million, then it is bad business, simply because not a penny was made, if however he was sold for 3 million then thats a clear million profit and good business.

I don't think it is that simple. For instance, you don't equate the value of shirt sales with 'Sharp' emblazoned on the back, or the number of fans that Billy added to the gate? or the number of additional programmes sold etc etc. Surely it's not so black and white..... is it?

by Irish Contingent Mon 20 Feb - 22:03:46

But in all probability the shirts would have been sold anyway, the only difference would be the name on the back. I dont know the cost but if say SHARP and 10 ( not many letters and numbers there ) was £ 10 and every single supporter ( all 7000 of them ) had the inkling to have name and number emblazoned on their back thats only 70K.
Yes there must have been an additional increase in numbers attending because of BS, how many is open to conjecture, lets say 1000, at 25£ a throw thats 25K, over full season half a million, and thats not to be sneezed at. But looking back, how many more did BS increase gates by, there appears to be not a lot of difference in the 10 games before he arrived and the 10 subsequent to his arrival.
I guess the same as shirt sales applies to Programmes.

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